Marines face U.S. probe in Afghanistan deaths
Marines are in the spotlight again, this time in Afghanistan where they’re accused of shooting and killing civilians after a suicide bombing.
What a lot of civilians don’t understand, and what any Marine who has ever held a weapon in a combat zone will tell you, is collateral damage is a sad fact of war. We accept it. I’m not going to get into detail about whether or not I think those Marines are guilty of the accusations. Maybe they intentionally fired into fleeing vehicles and civilians following the detonation of the VBIED. Maybe they didn’t. Maybe they were returning enemy fire. Maybe they weren’t. U.S. military officials said militant gunmen shot at Marines and may have caused some of the civilian casualties. It won’t take much of an investigation to determine what kind of rounds (read: bullets) tore through the 44 killed or wounded.
Whether casualties from this firefight point in our direction or not, how safe are our Marines if some dirty ass, tree hugging politician gets a hold of it? They’re not! Given enough time, data can be manipulated to prove any damn thing anyone wants. It’s not about lying necessarily, just not telling the whole truth.
Situations like these are what keeps Marines from pulling the trigger when we absolutely have to. Investigations. Inquiries. Nonjudicial punishment. It boils down to hesitation due to the threat of legal repercussions. A degree of hesitation that could ultimately cost a Marine’s life.
I’ve been in shoot/no shoot situations where I could have justifiably pulled the trigger, but I didn’t. That’s training and discipline. And I know if I was trained that way and I trained my Marines that way, then surely other Marines and their units have the same training and discipline? Regardless of the circumstances, I can say with confidence those Marine’s dealt out whatever force they felt necessary to protect themselves and their convoy. The key, as a citizen of whatever rat hole country Marine’s are protecting, is not being around when it all goes down.
When shady people pull shady shit, they’re asking for a 5.56mm sandwich served fresh. The deli’s open, bitches.
Born in the year of the Dragon, 
March 26th, 2007 at Monday @ 6:17am
I prefer a 7.62×51 sandwich….but 5.56×45 will do in a pinch:)
Duty First.
March 26th, 2007 at Monday @ 6:25am
It is always easier to sit on the sidelines and judge things postmortem. The fact is that even though I haven’t been in your shoes, I have had enough hair raising incidents that I can see where your coming from. I remember this one time where some asshole jumped me from behind while I was casually walking down a sidewalk in Selah Washington… I recall my reaction to this attack was to turn into a bear, fall to the ground, and yell something incomprehensible along the lines of “ganwrlamnf!”. Long story short, I had little control over my actions at that point, but I didn’t react against things that weren’t my focus… I didn’t tear the grass out of the ground in frustration… I didn’t curse the heavens or (for instance) shoot innocent civilians. I focused all of my energy on my attacker, I could give two shits about the women and children driving past in SUV’s. My thinking is that these Marines, who have more discipline than me, had the same intent: focus your energy on the threat. Why waste time slinging rounds into non threatening targets when that kind of behavior could get your killed and it doesn’t resolve the problem?
March 26th, 2007 at Monday @ 8:08am
Jayme, as a mom of a US Marine I can unequivocally say a dead raghead any day rather than a marine. If left alone they will continue shitting out in the open making IEDS and eatilng goats and otherwise providing nothing to the betterment of mankind. The marine on the other hand will save countless people, help where he is needed, promote honor, have worthwile children with a respect for right and wrong and generally be a credit to his family and corps. Accidents like shit happen, by the way go get a tatoo at Dreams on skin, support your brother, Mama Messuri
March 26th, 2007 at Monday @ 8:54am
“You know you never beat us on the battlefield,” I said to my North Vietnamese Army (NVA) counterpart in Hanoi a week before the fall of Saigon. “That may be so,” he replied, “but it is also irrelevant.”
–Colonel Harry G. Summers Jr., USA (Ret.)
You know I love you (man), but I think this is an issue where your experience and your perspective have overwhelmed your objectivity. I also won’t offer any speculation re: guilt/innocence (since it can’t be determined with the sources of information at my disposal), there are a number of reasons why it’s in our best interest to review questionable instances of collateral damage—like the one you’ve mentioned.
“But how can this be?” you ask, “Those dirty liberal politicians® are out to get the troops!” Believe it or not, this is a lie cut from whole cloth. There’s no political hay to be made from demonizing soldiers—Bush makes a far more convenient (not to mention appropriate) target—but the previous shit we’ve seen out of some of the weekend warriors (think piles of naked men or electrodes hooked to testicles) mean that we can’t retain our credibility abroad while granting our men and women in uniform unlimited benefit of the doubt anymore.
Sad but true.
March 26th, 2007 at Monday @ 6:37pm
Good point on the weekend warriors, but to remove the entire unit for the investigation? Horse shit.
I feel the article was half baked (whether from lack of inquiry or lack of cooperation). It generates more questions than answers, even from me.
I find news from the front is inadequate, inaccurate, and often misleading. I picked up a few headlines from operations conducted on my last tour, and the information was sketchy at best. I really can’t blame the ignorant for drawing their own conclusions, but that always leads to theories, then rumors, then “fact” again somehow that’s FUBAR.
You’re also right about no political hay to be made from demonizing soldiers, but I challenge you to say, in the same breath, it’s not happening in the media or on Capitol Hill.
March 26th, 2007 at Monday @ 10:59pm
Hmm, somehow it seems that I failed to communicate the main point I was actually trying to make, which was along the lines of “winning the war but losing the peace” (as it’s been stated)–that’s what I get for posting without reviewing what I write first. Anyway, at this point it’s become apparent that our military can continue to kill insurgents for a damned long time without reaching a satisfactory conclusion. Nothing against the armed forces (they’re apparently damned good at what they do), it’s simply that there’s no modern historical instance of an occupying force actually *winning* a protracted guerrilla war (the Soviets couldn’t do it in Afghanistan, the French failed in Vietname, ditto for the US, ad infinitum, ad naseum). At the end of the day, there is almost a perfect storm of ethnic, religious, political, socio-economic and cultural factors working against us… (I can expand upon them if you’d like, but it’s going to take some space). But I digress. The VERY last thing we need is more bad PR. Dead non-combatants = bad PR (the appearance of a cover-up = worse PR), plain and simple.
As far as the other: I’ll say without equivocation that no US politician anywhere has ever won re-election on a “troops are baby-killers” platform–I’ll go so far as to say that you won’t find a documented example of somebody on “Capital Hill” going off on how soldiers are teh Evil (unless you’re bitching about the Kerry thing, which is a bit of a reach IMHO). On the flip side of the coin, there are an abundance of politicians who wax eloquent on their support for the troops (the majority of whom never served a day in their lives) while failing *do* anything to, you know, actually support said troops (unless you count yellow ribbon magnets–you guys feeling the love from the magnets or what?).
As far as the other, define “media”. It’s been my experience that the major media are willing to jump through their own assholes in order to avoid portraying the rank-and-file troops in a negative light (Again, that type of coverage doesn’t play well. The Abu Ghraib coverage, for example, bordered on the absurd: “It appears that a few bad apples must have done all of this shit on their own, while keeping the entire chain of command in the dark.”) In conclusion: pointing out the fundamental flaw in the mission* =/= dissing the troops.
* It must be said that bringing democracy and freedom (and mom and apple pie) to the Middle East is a pipe dream. I’ll have what W is smoking.
March 30th, 2007 at Friday @ 8:53am
BTW, I can back Jayme’s claim about the crappy news coverage in Iraq. Frankly, I don’t give the MSM (mainstream media) my time anymore. When I got back from OIF2 (Late 2003 - Early 2005), the crap I saw being reported when I got home was absolutely wrong or slanted big time.
Here are some other sites on the real deal:
http://www.patdollard.com/
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/
In case you are curious what the “weekend warriors” from ND did under the 1st ID:
Here is more info on my unit’s mobilization:
http://www.guard.bismarck.nd.us/news/detail.asp?newsID=5
http://www.in-forum.com/collections/index.cfm?collection=nd_soldier_iraq
http://www.1id.army.mil/1ID/Units/eng/Heroes.htm
We were attached to the 1st Infantry Division:
http://www.1id.army.mil/1ID/Photos/2004_Photo_Archive/Photos_2004.htm
http://www.1id.army.mil/1ID/Danger_Forward/Danger_Forward.htm
..and participated in some good ops in the Sammara area:
http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume3/september_2005/9_05_3.html
http://www.defendamerica.mil/photoessays/oct2004/p100404c1.html
How much of this did you see in the MSM? I’m sick of the 30 second soundbyte from the green zone by some reporter all dolled up in body armor saying how bad it is.
Give Gen. Patreaus and this “surge” a chance. It already has had dramatic affect on ops. Rummy “retiring” was another positive. He didn’t learn much from the McNamara style of micro-managing a war.
SSG Gietzen
OIF2
1st Infantry Division
141st ECB
March 30th, 2007 at Friday @ 2:22pm
This proves I’m not crazy. Being surrounded by Marines damn near 24/7 puts a certain “perspective” on things. I’m glad there are other people, from other branches, doing other things in different places that see the SSDD with the media over there.
Sure, there are plenty of reputable news sources out there, but it all boils down to the reporter’s interpretation of the events which is ultimately controlled by network ratings. Can you ever believe a man who’s getting paid to tell you a story?
False reporting isn’t the issue. The issue is not telling the whole truth. No one’s being lied to, just kept in the dark.
But who really gives a shit about the Iraq campaign anyways? The media doesn’t, unless it’s profitable. The public doesn’t, unless it intrudes on their liberties. The politicians don’t, unless it gets more votes.
Let another fu**king celebrity die under “mysterious circumstances” and watch the media feeding frenzy.
What? Where’s the war? Huh?
The best education on Iraq/media relationship is a trip to the sandbox… and I sure as hell don’t see Carnival Cruises heading that way.